Since you know a lot about orange wine, maybe you can help me with a recommendation... I like the idea of orange wine in theory (because I like plenty of skin contact reds so why not whites?). That said, there's very few I actually like in practice, and I think that's because I'm really not into what I call the "cider effect" of natural wines. And where I'm from (Amsterdam), the orange wines available are still predominantly natural. Can you recommend any orange wines that are not made in a natural style? Not that I want to drink straight chemicals but you know what I mean! I'm looking for an orange wine without the funk, I guess.
Thanks for dropping this comment/question, Vicky! While I can never be 100% which specific wines are available to you in your area, I'd recommend a few guidelines:
1) look for wine shops that aren't explicitly natural/organic/biodynamic specialty shops, if that's possible.
2) If it's not possible, look for "organic" and/or "biodynamic" but make sure you tell the wineshop person you want to avoid explicitly anything designated "natural". Organic and biodynamic are farming certifications and have much less to do with the winemaking itself, and rarely come with the "natural" wine funk.
3) Likely you'll be able to find German and Austrian oranges made from Gruner Veltliner or Gewurztraminer, and both make incredible orange wines. Just, again, avoid that "natural" designation.
4) I'd also look for Portuguese and Spanish oranges, many of them made with rare native grapes, and many of them not "natural".
Thankfully, natural winemakers do proudly stamp that word on every bottle, so at least you'll never be taken by surprise! :P Hope that helps!
I knew I should have popped a bowl of popcorn before reading this! As always, some really good insights here.
From my perspective, the people who want to be seen drinking an orange wine will get snobby about it, and the people who genuinely want to learn about wine in general will feel comfortable sharing their enthusiasm for orange wine or their true desire to taste something else. Because I am a Bay Area sommelier, I will often assume people have at least a little experience drinking orange or skin-contact wines, so my next question will be more about style. I’ve poured everything from super natty oranges that taste like nothing but brett to very light orange wines with 12 hours of skin contact to structured but chuggable orange wines that practically beg to be consumed with a full meal. The sub-styles of orange wine can vary widely, and I love putting the right style into someone’s glass.
At the end of the day, as long as a guest is happy with whatever is in their glass, I’m happy. And if they’re not? I go out of my way to read between the lines and find them something they are more likely to enjoy, even if it’s not the style they asked for first. And even then, some people would rather be right than happy. Can’t win ‘em all (though I’d like to think my batting average is fairly high).
I secretly love bratty brett-filled oranges, but I love even more the smoother styles. And yes, every conversation with every customer is sort of a palate rorschach test, where they spit out free association words as you desperately try to assemble some sort of vaguely shared language between the two of you. Whether it's red, white, rose, or orange, it's always essentially the same conversation.
Totally. It's why I think the ultimate color of any wine if more important than the general methodologies used. If I tried to call that Grenache Blanc an "orange" wine it would just cofuse the piss out of absolutely everyone!
Great read! It’s a style to be appreciated for what it is and saying that any skin contact white/orange wine is bad or off by default is silly… I’ve had horrific examples and I have had great ones, and that applies just as much to classic reds or whites!
Agree. It is not new, the kids today that are so obsessed with trends- yea they cannot stop talking about it- kind of like talking about natural wine as if there is an actual definition and as if it is superior. I wrote about it a couple years ago because people not in wine have no idea what they taste like, so in that sense I think it helps- also how they are made. But I think the majority of wine drinkers (not ppl in the biz) don’t really want orange wine. I totally appreciate this post, you said a lot I think I would say and have .
I'm certainly not arguing we shouldn't discuss how any wine tastes when we talk about them. It's more that we never explain the broad strokes details of any red or rose, we never set aside a paragraph or two solely to state that it's skin contact with the grape skins or for how long. Even though most people aren't actually aware that this is how reds or roses are made. We might rattle off the technical winemaking details at some point, but its just that - details, info, bullet points. It's only orange wine that we then suddenly go into patronizing teacher mode, which I think is a big part of what's keep orange wine's reputation as weird and wild and new kid on the block. Because WE, the wine writers, keep treating it like one.
It's funny, orange wine has definitely overtaken rose on the coastal cities in popularity. You can usually find 2-3 oranges for every 1 rose on any wine bar menu here. I actually turned one person onto an orange when she only liked semi-sweets. She couldn't take the bitter flavors of dry wines, but some oranges get away with having nothing bitter in them. She called it her "gateway" wine in terms of maybe developing a more evolved palate. That's a wine win right there!
I think maybe I don’t see the same articles buuuuut I tend to ignore patronizing wine writers and their articles like they have covid. 😂
Super interesting- but makes sense the coast cities have hipsters, hipsters jump on trends, orange wine is the trend lately. I see and get that. And hey, if someone likes it and it gets them into wine- amazing! I just have yet to convert someone not professionally in wine into them- the closest is Naken actually. People like that and I think it is a gateway into orange wines!
Great article, I fully agree with all the sentiments. Just wondering where you found that lovely diagram with the four glasses? Maybe a credit would help? 😉
Weeeelllll, but I'm also arguing it's not a trend/fad! It's a comeback, to be sure, with generations that never had it before now. But it should be treated as a fundamental 4th option, just another wine like all the others. There's also a lot less throwaway orange wine being made than roses or whites, so the smaller selection tends to be a surer bet than those, at least right now.
I'm not sure the articles I'm talking about are meant to be patronizing, they're just educational in nature. But let's say we're just writing about a single, specific wine or two. We don't give a history of rose and the methodologies, we just talk about these two specific roses. So then that's what we should do with one or two specific orange wines. And skip the lesseon embedded within. That info exists in plenty of articles and resources now, we don't need to keep including it in every mention of the stuff going forward.
I can see what you are saying but a lot of my audience doesn’t read what we read. They are stay at home moms- or working moms who want that background refresher. Or at least that isa lot of my audience.
See I think all wine goes in and out of fashion/trend. Like Bordeaux wines aren’t on trend currently. That is how I view the orange trend or “come back” kind of like the annoying Provence rosé trend- pale rosé thing that happened for so long.
I am going to agree it is a fourth option but still super unknown. You live on a coast- if you go to most midwest towns- orange wine is a hipster thing and not on any wine menu. So while I get what you are saying I still think orange wine needs explanation. Too many people still ask me what it is at the wine shop weekly. So we will agree to disagree on some points but agree on others?! 🤷🏻♀️
Nice read
Good points, very well made! Thank you.
Since you know a lot about orange wine, maybe you can help me with a recommendation... I like the idea of orange wine in theory (because I like plenty of skin contact reds so why not whites?). That said, there's very few I actually like in practice, and I think that's because I'm really not into what I call the "cider effect" of natural wines. And where I'm from (Amsterdam), the orange wines available are still predominantly natural. Can you recommend any orange wines that are not made in a natural style? Not that I want to drink straight chemicals but you know what I mean! I'm looking for an orange wine without the funk, I guess.
Thanks for dropping this comment/question, Vicky! While I can never be 100% which specific wines are available to you in your area, I'd recommend a few guidelines:
1) look for wine shops that aren't explicitly natural/organic/biodynamic specialty shops, if that's possible.
2) If it's not possible, look for "organic" and/or "biodynamic" but make sure you tell the wineshop person you want to avoid explicitly anything designated "natural". Organic and biodynamic are farming certifications and have much less to do with the winemaking itself, and rarely come with the "natural" wine funk.
3) Likely you'll be able to find German and Austrian oranges made from Gruner Veltliner or Gewurztraminer, and both make incredible orange wines. Just, again, avoid that "natural" designation.
4) I'd also look for Portuguese and Spanish oranges, many of them made with rare native grapes, and many of them not "natural".
Thankfully, natural winemakers do proudly stamp that word on every bottle, so at least you'll never be taken by surprise! :P Hope that helps!
Thanks for the tips, Dave! I'm out in the sticks at the moment, but when I get home I will resume my hunt.
Indeed, at least natural wines rarely sneak up on you... Those labels scream natural from a mile off! 😆
That's the most sensible and useful short piece I've ever read on orange wine. Thank you!
Glad you connected with it! I've been wanting someone else to write this piece for years, so had to finally bite the bullet and get it done myself :P
I knew I should have popped a bowl of popcorn before reading this! As always, some really good insights here.
From my perspective, the people who want to be seen drinking an orange wine will get snobby about it, and the people who genuinely want to learn about wine in general will feel comfortable sharing their enthusiasm for orange wine or their true desire to taste something else. Because I am a Bay Area sommelier, I will often assume people have at least a little experience drinking orange or skin-contact wines, so my next question will be more about style. I’ve poured everything from super natty oranges that taste like nothing but brett to very light orange wines with 12 hours of skin contact to structured but chuggable orange wines that practically beg to be consumed with a full meal. The sub-styles of orange wine can vary widely, and I love putting the right style into someone’s glass.
At the end of the day, as long as a guest is happy with whatever is in their glass, I’m happy. And if they’re not? I go out of my way to read between the lines and find them something they are more likely to enjoy, even if it’s not the style they asked for first. And even then, some people would rather be right than happy. Can’t win ‘em all (though I’d like to think my batting average is fairly high).
I secretly love bratty brett-filled oranges, but I love even more the smoother styles. And yes, every conversation with every customer is sort of a palate rorschach test, where they spit out free association words as you desperately try to assemble some sort of vaguely shared language between the two of you. Whether it's red, white, rose, or orange, it's always essentially the same conversation.
Exactly! Talking about wine with guests is still so fun to me. I feel like a boozy version of Dolly Levi matching people to the wines they’ll love.
Interesting read Dave! Thanks for including the pic of the 2 Grenchache blanc and gris. Do you know if either were fermented on the skins?
Yup! Both for 21 days each.
Very interesting how pale the GB is! Thanks Dave!
Totally. It's why I think the ultimate color of any wine if more important than the general methodologies used. If I tried to call that Grenache Blanc an "orange" wine it would just cofuse the piss out of absolutely everyone!
Great read! It’s a style to be appreciated for what it is and saying that any skin contact white/orange wine is bad or off by default is silly… I’ve had horrific examples and I have had great ones, and that applies just as much to classic reds or whites!
Had no idea! This was great info!
Agree. It is not new, the kids today that are so obsessed with trends- yea they cannot stop talking about it- kind of like talking about natural wine as if there is an actual definition and as if it is superior. I wrote about it a couple years ago because people not in wine have no idea what they taste like, so in that sense I think it helps- also how they are made. But I think the majority of wine drinkers (not ppl in the biz) don’t really want orange wine. I totally appreciate this post, you said a lot I think I would say and have .
I'm certainly not arguing we shouldn't discuss how any wine tastes when we talk about them. It's more that we never explain the broad strokes details of any red or rose, we never set aside a paragraph or two solely to state that it's skin contact with the grape skins or for how long. Even though most people aren't actually aware that this is how reds or roses are made. We might rattle off the technical winemaking details at some point, but its just that - details, info, bullet points. It's only orange wine that we then suddenly go into patronizing teacher mode, which I think is a big part of what's keep orange wine's reputation as weird and wild and new kid on the block. Because WE, the wine writers, keep treating it like one.
It's funny, orange wine has definitely overtaken rose on the coastal cities in popularity. You can usually find 2-3 oranges for every 1 rose on any wine bar menu here. I actually turned one person onto an orange when she only liked semi-sweets. She couldn't take the bitter flavors of dry wines, but some oranges get away with having nothing bitter in them. She called it her "gateway" wine in terms of maybe developing a more evolved palate. That's a wine win right there!
I think maybe I don’t see the same articles buuuuut I tend to ignore patronizing wine writers and their articles like they have covid. 😂
Super interesting- but makes sense the coast cities have hipsters, hipsters jump on trends, orange wine is the trend lately. I see and get that. And hey, if someone likes it and it gets them into wine- amazing! I just have yet to convert someone not professionally in wine into them- the closest is Naken actually. People like that and I think it is a gateway into orange wines!
Great article, I fully agree with all the sentiments. Just wondering where you found that lovely diagram with the four glasses? Maybe a credit would help? 😉
Wuh-oh! I found it via seach on some other site (https://www.afoodieworld.com/blog/2022/08/21/rewriting-wine-101-red-white-rose-or-orange-wine) that was plainly using swiped images (another was Wine Folly) but I should have done an image search *of* the image on top of that to find out where it came from. Mea culpa! And thanks for the gentle yet still sharp elbow.
No worries, and thanks for adding the credit. I can send you a cleaner image if you want ;-)
Just grabbed the cleaner version - and with a proper yet subtle watermark on it, which I think is even better - from your post. :)
By the way I love these types of conversations!
Weeeelllll, but I'm also arguing it's not a trend/fad! It's a comeback, to be sure, with generations that never had it before now. But it should be treated as a fundamental 4th option, just another wine like all the others. There's also a lot less throwaway orange wine being made than roses or whites, so the smaller selection tends to be a surer bet than those, at least right now.
I'm not sure the articles I'm talking about are meant to be patronizing, they're just educational in nature. But let's say we're just writing about a single, specific wine or two. We don't give a history of rose and the methodologies, we just talk about these two specific roses. So then that's what we should do with one or two specific orange wines. And skip the lesseon embedded within. That info exists in plenty of articles and resources now, we don't need to keep including it in every mention of the stuff going forward.
I can see what you are saying but a lot of my audience doesn’t read what we read. They are stay at home moms- or working moms who want that background refresher. Or at least that isa lot of my audience.
See I think all wine goes in and out of fashion/trend. Like Bordeaux wines aren’t on trend currently. That is how I view the orange trend or “come back” kind of like the annoying Provence rosé trend- pale rosé thing that happened for so long.
I am going to agree it is a fourth option but still super unknown. You live on a coast- if you go to most midwest towns- orange wine is a hipster thing and not on any wine menu. So while I get what you are saying I still think orange wine needs explanation. Too many people still ask me what it is at the wine shop weekly. So we will agree to disagree on some points but agree on others?! 🤷🏻♀️